cannibalmind: (getting the scent)
Dr. Hannibal Lecter ([personal profile] cannibalmind) wrote2011-09-12 05:50 pm

For [livejournal.com profile] lastvoyages: Second Casefile [Written]

[Private]
Case Study Two: Richard, "Ritchie", Inmate to Will Graham, last name unknown.

Ritchie presents as a quietly nervous young man with the distinct goatish odor of schizophrenia to him. Outwardly neat, presentable and soft-spoken, he carries around a tremendous amount of tension and I suspect has a violent temper. From his dependency and immaturity I suspect that he never had the opportunity to grow in a healthy manner before he was struck down by his illness. He does not appear to have received treatment, or even a clear diagnosis from a professional, and may well be in complete denial about his illness. Will and I discussed him, and his Warden agrees that acknowledging what the young man has suffered, alone or near to it and certainly without proper help, will be key to gaining his trust and cooperation. Despite his illness and certain...unpleasant proclivities toward women, he strikes me as quite intelligent and with a great deal of untapped potential.

Note to self: talk to him one on one.

[Public]
Every culture and society has its own moral standards. I speak not of the laws of a society, but rather its unwritten cultural rules and mores--that which is assumed to be so obviously right and wrong that it need not even be codified.


As an example, consider the four Japanese Pillars of Moral Character. [His pronunciation of each term is perfect.] On is the principle of repaying one's debts, both literal and debts of honor. Gimu is the principle of owing allegiance to the holder of any debts you cannot repay, such as when one owes one's life to another. Giri refers to the execution of one's obligations, both of occupation and of private life, to the best of one's ability. Finally, Ninjo, the compassionate acknowledgment of the interconnectedness of all people and in a larger sense, all living things. The value of these principles were impressed upon me in my youth, and I have come to be reminded of them of late.

Yet no moral code means much of anything unless it is internalized and brought into action by individual people. In internalizing cultural mores, of course, the mores themselves tend to change. People will relate to one part of a code and yet find others irrelevant to their lives; others will attempt the whole exercise, subsuming any personal moral thought in favor of what their society deems to be right. And even then, the ways in which each person acts upon commonly accepted morals changes with their characters. A soldier sees nothing contradictory in fighting for peace, for example, though he by all rights values it more by knowing its opposite so intimately. Yet many civilians would see this as a contradiction. They forget the need for rough men standing ready in the night because violence is so foreign to their day to day experience. Who is right? Is there not room in society for both points of view?

Is morality rigidly unshakeable at its heart, or is it fluid and subject to cultural, situational and personal relativity? I would argue the latter...but only to a point. Like a willow tree, morality bends with the wind, but it has certain immovable roots. Can they be identified and agreed upon? And if so, what are they?

Where is your baseline for morality? What do you believe are the moral arguments that all can agree upon, or which are most practical?

[identity profile] cannibalmind.livejournal.com 2011-09-13 06:45 pm (UTC)(link)
I thoroughly agree that those who protect a society should be remembered. This is a matter of both ideology and logic. Safety does not manifest out of thin air; it is worked for by those who venture outside of its zone.

Perhaps there is no consensus to be found. Yet one can learn a great deal simply by asking.

[audio; PRIVATE]

[identity profile] cannibalmind.livejournal.com 2011-09-13 07:02 pm (UTC)(link)
If one is honor bound to enough obligations, eventually some of them will end up at cross purposes with each other. It is in this way that people end up with unpayable debts whose holders they must honor.

Let me give you an example. A man is obligated to remain free and able to practice in his profession. He is also obligated to treat his friends well and do them no harm. Yet one day a friend discovers that the man has done something illegal. As a law officer the friend's own giri demands that he report the crime. He ends up conflicted between two obligations--between his friend and the law--just as the first man is conflicted between his friend and his obligation to keep his good name and keep his life from ruin.

In each case, all that they can do is their best. They must choose, while doing the best they can to make up for the path they could not honor. In this particular case, the first man attacked the second to keep him from reporting him. Because of this and similar activities he now has a lifelong debt to the other, which he executes largely using the skills of his profession.

In short--it is one hell of a problem, yes. But the most that can be expected of any man is that he do his best to honor both obligations however he can.

[identity profile] cannibalmind.livejournal.com 2011-09-13 07:06 pm (UTC)(link)
Spoken like a true romantic of the old school. Civility is terribly important, is it not?
requiresssacrifice: (Default)

[personal profile] requiresssacrifice 2011-09-13 07:23 pm (UTC)(link)
Yes, exactly! [Whoops, tone down the puppy-like excitement over Hannibal Lecter having a conversation with you.] Rigid morality has no place in any society. It's suffocating.
i_like_your: (Look - Right)

Re: Private

[personal profile] i_like_your 2011-09-13 07:33 pm (UTC)(link)
Your species is inherently self-destructive.
what_ho_jeeves: (too sexy for my hat)

[personal profile] what_ho_jeeves 2011-09-13 08:05 pm (UTC)(link)
Quite so. One cannot be a preux chevalier if one is not civil. Take away civility and a man could end up like Roderick Spode. [Bertie gives an exaggerated shiver of horror and disgust.]
truth_is_cold: (rhade - sinister)

[personal profile] truth_is_cold 2011-09-13 08:54 pm (UTC)(link)
Whatever society has been created here has been greatly compromised. [And he's proud of himself. He's not completely ready to chase after Lector with a mallet and being civil. Look how much progress that is!]

Like Miss Vasilia, I'm of the enlightened self-interest school. An individualist, and an egoist, but with the idea that a civilized person will no the difference between padded excess that serves no purpose other than to make one weaker bother mentally and physically, and proving excellence and constantly challenging one's self.

[identity profile] neuroticalson.livejournal.com 2011-09-13 08:55 pm (UTC)(link)
Yeah, it was pretty awesome. There weren't really any morals or rules, though. Basically just take what you want, but don't expect to get away with it if you take it from me.

[identity profile] im-spiderman.livejournal.com 2011-09-13 10:02 pm (UTC)(link)
Aye, both about the facts and often enough the people who give them to ye.

[audio; PRIVATE]

[identity profile] frickinbaretta.livejournal.com 2011-09-13 10:12 pm (UTC)(link)
...So you're fucked up the ass either way, basically.

[That's...not even remotely reassuring.]

It makes it sound like life's just a bunch of obligations woven together like some kind of spiderweb that's bent to drive you insane.

But then again, fuck, that's life in a nutshell, isn't it? "Do your best and hope it doesn't screw you over too bad."

[audio; PRIVATE]

[identity profile] cannibalmind.livejournal.com 2011-09-13 10:20 pm (UTC)(link)
Why do I get the feeling that you have been caught in such a web by your struggles to be a good man yourself? It's a terribly ironic situation to be in, and if so, you have my sympathy.

But no, life is not merely about obligation...unless you are Japanese, of course, they seem to thrive on them. You have an obligation to yourself, as well. When caught up in such circumstances, the best thing to do is to take one of two ways. One, you decide right then and there, with the suddenness of a hawk's strike, choosing to live with the consequences. Two, you step back, and give yourself time to find your center and ponder the best course.

Either way requires a great deal of self-confidence and decisiveness. It is not easy. But it is doable.

[identity profile] doctor-j-crane.livejournal.com 2011-09-14 12:50 am (UTC)(link)
Your attempts to upset me are rather poor. Not to mention inaccurate. You really ought to try harder.
no_fastolfe: (Default)

Sorry for the delay :( Hard to switch journals on my phone

[personal profile] no_fastolfe 2011-09-14 02:23 am (UTC)(link)
[Someone who isn't arguing with her or browbeating her? How splendid!]

I am no doctor or mentologist; I can't offer you more insight, I apologize. I can only speak to the state of robotics.

[audio; PRIVATE]

[identity profile] frickinbaretta.livejournal.com 2011-09-14 12:53 pm (UTC)(link)
Me? Nah, it's just food for thought. Theoretical shit.

[You're fooling no-one, Freddy, but it's adorable that you think you can. You might as well have just said "I'm asking for a friend".]

So...do whatever sits right with you, whatever you're gonna be able to live with the best. See, that makes more sense than having to worry about owing people shit.

Gotcha. :)

[identity profile] cannibalmind.livejournal.com 2011-09-14 06:49 pm (UTC)(link)
That is quite all right. As for speaking to the state of robotics, that is a fascinating subject in its own right. Especially considering that my first close acquaintance here is in fact a robot herself.

[audio; PRIVATE]

[identity profile] cannibalmind.livejournal.com 2011-09-14 07:06 pm (UTC)(link)
My mistake. [He lets it slide. Call it a trust building exercise.]

Sometimes the choices one makes in this manner lead to regrets. The idea of a moral debt gives a person a way of salving guilt and improving the debt laden relationship. I am in the process of doing just that with one of my relationships. It is an option.

[identity profile] cannibalmind.livejournal.com 2011-09-14 07:07 pm (UTC)(link)
Roderick Spode? Was he a terrible cad of your acquaintance? Those sorts are a constant irritant to deal with.

[identity profile] cannibalmind.livejournal.com 2011-09-14 07:10 pm (UTC)(link)
Rigid morality does not, no. People evolve and change. Society evolves and changes. One's moral self must adapt as well. Population control, famine prevention, disease prevention and immunization, all of these pursuits have been stymied at one time or another by antiquated morals.

[identity profile] cannibalmind.livejournal.com 2011-09-14 07:19 pm (UTC)(link)
True. The study of people is my business, after all, though right now I mostly wanted to get a closer grasp of local expectations.

[identity profile] cannibalmind.livejournal.com 2011-09-14 07:20 pm (UTC)(link)
The law of the jungle. It requires particularly tough and resourceful individuals to survive in such a place.

Private

[identity profile] cannibalmind.livejournal.com 2011-09-14 07:22 pm (UTC)(link)
I have heard this argument before. Tragically that may well be the case. Stabler and less self-destructive human subpopulations are possible, but as a whole we are fractious, chaotic and infested with the Free Range Rude.

[identity profile] cannibalmind.livejournal.com 2011-09-14 07:23 pm (UTC)(link)
You realize that verbal reflection is a common resort of children, don't you?

[identity profile] cannibalmind.livejournal.com 2011-09-14 07:31 pm (UTC)(link)
Hhhhhhm. Compromised in what way?

I am impressed by this approach. It is both pragmatic and holds one to a high standard. Is the quality of one's relationships a part of that standard of excellence?

[identity profile] neuroticalson.livejournal.com 2011-09-14 08:13 pm (UTC)(link)
Don't forget intelligence and ruthlessness. [Because Slick can't resist an opportunity to pat himself on the back.]

Lots of people didn't survive it, though.

[identity profile] cannibalmind.livejournal.com 2011-09-14 08:19 pm (UTC)(link)
That is always the way. Sometimes in an atmosphere of pure survival one finds that amorality is the best option. You weren't alone, however, were you?

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