cannibalmind: (getting the scent)
Dr. Hannibal Lecter ([personal profile] cannibalmind) wrote2011-09-12 05:50 pm

For [livejournal.com profile] lastvoyages: Second Casefile [Written]

[Private]
Case Study Two: Richard, "Ritchie", Inmate to Will Graham, last name unknown.

Ritchie presents as a quietly nervous young man with the distinct goatish odor of schizophrenia to him. Outwardly neat, presentable and soft-spoken, he carries around a tremendous amount of tension and I suspect has a violent temper. From his dependency and immaturity I suspect that he never had the opportunity to grow in a healthy manner before he was struck down by his illness. He does not appear to have received treatment, or even a clear diagnosis from a professional, and may well be in complete denial about his illness. Will and I discussed him, and his Warden agrees that acknowledging what the young man has suffered, alone or near to it and certainly without proper help, will be key to gaining his trust and cooperation. Despite his illness and certain...unpleasant proclivities toward women, he strikes me as quite intelligent and with a great deal of untapped potential.

Note to self: talk to him one on one.

[Public]
Every culture and society has its own moral standards. I speak not of the laws of a society, but rather its unwritten cultural rules and mores--that which is assumed to be so obviously right and wrong that it need not even be codified.


As an example, consider the four Japanese Pillars of Moral Character. [His pronunciation of each term is perfect.] On is the principle of repaying one's debts, both literal and debts of honor. Gimu is the principle of owing allegiance to the holder of any debts you cannot repay, such as when one owes one's life to another. Giri refers to the execution of one's obligations, both of occupation and of private life, to the best of one's ability. Finally, Ninjo, the compassionate acknowledgment of the interconnectedness of all people and in a larger sense, all living things. The value of these principles were impressed upon me in my youth, and I have come to be reminded of them of late.

Yet no moral code means much of anything unless it is internalized and brought into action by individual people. In internalizing cultural mores, of course, the mores themselves tend to change. People will relate to one part of a code and yet find others irrelevant to their lives; others will attempt the whole exercise, subsuming any personal moral thought in favor of what their society deems to be right. And even then, the ways in which each person acts upon commonly accepted morals changes with their characters. A soldier sees nothing contradictory in fighting for peace, for example, though he by all rights values it more by knowing its opposite so intimately. Yet many civilians would see this as a contradiction. They forget the need for rough men standing ready in the night because violence is so foreign to their day to day experience. Who is right? Is there not room in society for both points of view?

Is morality rigidly unshakeable at its heart, or is it fluid and subject to cultural, situational and personal relativity? I would argue the latter...but only to a point. Like a willow tree, morality bends with the wind, but it has certain immovable roots. Can they be identified and agreed upon? And if so, what are they?

Where is your baseline for morality? What do you believe are the moral arguments that all can agree upon, or which are most practical?
truth_is_cold: (rhade - prim leg cross)

[personal profile] truth_is_cold 2011-09-13 01:16 am (UTC)(link)
[Argh. Cannibal. But argh. Philosophical moral talk. Philosophy makes for grabby hands.]

I'm not a subscriber to group morality. I was taught that each individual should, as you said, form their own morality. Not so that they would follow an empty ideal, or be ignorant of moral character altogether. But beliefs formed through observation, education, and experience hold more significance than those impressed by convention.

Therefore, my moral arguments may be agreed upon. Or they may not be, based upon the fact I'm an inmate. The only reason I have for them to be accepted is for me to exist as part of a community and a social group.

[identity profile] doctor-j-crane.livejournal.com 2011-09-13 01:34 am (UTC)(link)
Why on earth are you talking about this?

[identity profile] cannibalmind.livejournal.com 2011-09-13 01:49 am (UTC)(link)
Hmmm. Interesting. Do you believe it is necessary then to give up portions of one's personal code in order to be compatible with one's society?

[identity profile] cannibalmind.livejournal.com 2011-09-13 01:49 am (UTC)(link)
It was on my mind.
truth_is_cold: (rhade - resigned)

[personal profile] truth_is_cold 2011-09-13 01:57 am (UTC)(link)
I believe that depends. A person is an individual, and if stripping that morality compromises what makes that person proud of who they are, then they shouldn't. They should maintain their morality, and use it to the best of their ability.

But if someone is part of a society that they largely approve of, save one or two exceptions, perhaps they can reconsider their perceptions.
i_like_your: (Smile - Front)

[personal profile] i_like_your 2011-09-13 02:21 am (UTC)(link)
My reading suggestion was of assistance.

[identity profile] doctor-j-crane.livejournal.com 2011-09-13 02:36 am (UTC)(link)
Really. Well, you'll be glad to know that we live in a completely morally relative place. So it doesn't matter.
no_fastolfe: (Robots and ambition)

[personal profile] no_fastolfe 2011-09-13 02:38 am (UTC)(link)
Individual advancement, so long as that advancement does not cause another individual to be deprived of basic necessities, is the highest goal of the Spacer worlds.

[Vasilia is not so much defensive as pre-emptively hostile. Her paranoia tells her that everyone must and will disagree and attack her and she addresses them, unconsciously, accordingly.]

It is the spoken and unspoken moral center of us. We will co-operate in our research when the need is dire, and no one of us would allow a fellow Spacer to starve, as it is the surplus of resources that allows our society to thrive, and that infrastructure that we will co-operate to maintain. The fourth principal of this planet you mention, compassion, can surely be understood as 'enlightened self interest', and yet I hear such sentimentality attached to it!

[identity profile] cannibalmind.livejournal.com 2011-09-13 02:45 am (UTC)(link)
A deeply thought compromise. The approach interests me. I suppose that it would require constant renegotiation on a certain level, but the same could be said of interpersonal relationships.
truth_is_cold: (rhade - side-eye at dylan)

[personal profile] truth_is_cold 2011-09-13 02:52 am (UTC)(link)
A belief one isn't willing to reconsider is counter-productive to survival. Some "morality" becomes no more significant than prejudice and superstition, if there's no room for individual consideration. It just becomes empty justification.

Did something in particular bring this to mind?

[identity profile] cannibalmind.livejournal.com 2011-09-13 02:52 am (UTC)(link)
My, my my. What a weak attempt to control the conversation through dismissal. It's not very impressive. Perhaps you should stay out of intellectual discussions until you've matured sufficiently to address the topic at hand.

[identity profile] cannibalmind.livejournal.com 2011-09-13 02:59 am (UTC)(link)
It certainly offered me food for thought.

[Private]
Who is this child making a pest of himself in my nice discussion? He doesn't seem to do anything but whine and try to contradict people.

[identity profile] cannibalmind.livejournal.com 2011-09-13 03:05 am (UTC)(link)
The Japanese are a rather sentimental race, yes. Enlightened self-interest is an interesting redefinition, however. If one's sense of self includes one's interdependence with others, it is I suppose a very logical progression.

[Nope, no hostility here yet. He's too polite.]
no_fastolfe: (Default)

[personal profile] no_fastolfe 2011-09-13 03:08 am (UTC)(link)
The more the human race moves beyond need, the less interdependent we need be on one another. Earth is still gripped with a shortage of resources; the taboos and social mores are thick and complex. On a Spacer world there are fewer taboos, and they are more focused on the comfort of the individual.
i_like_your: (HUD - Connecting)

Private:

[personal profile] i_like_your 2011-09-13 03:10 am (UTC)(link)
Doctor Crane, Jonathan. Inmate.

He is intellectually confrontational and predisposed to the use of chemical weapons.
Edited 2011-09-13 03:10 (UTC)

[identity profile] cannibalmind.livejournal.com 2011-09-13 03:12 am (UTC)(link)
A respected acquaintance here suggested I reread my Japanese philosophy in order to reacquaint myself with the moral arguments of the wider society. My own moral set is...[a chuckle] somewhat incompatible with local society. By being receptive to individual local opinions I hoped to get a broader picture of those I am expected to..."get along" with.

[identity profile] cannibalmind.livejournal.com 2011-09-13 03:13 am (UTC)(link)
Spacing worlds. Fascinating. I take it, then that you are from a society far more advanced than my own.

I assume that you have a preference for spacing worlds?

[identity profile] hourglass-twin.livejournal.com 2011-09-13 03:15 am (UTC)(link)
I return life debts...other than that, my morals aren't terribly firm. I think all can agree that murder is wrong, at least most of the time, but it's hardly practical. It's wrong to bully those weaker than oneself.

That's honestly all I can think of.

Private

[identity profile] cannibalmind.livejournal.com 2011-09-13 03:16 am (UTC)(link)
Oh lovely, I've found my Chilton. His arguments are rather weak. He must fall back on chemical weaponry on a regular basis then.
truth_is_cold: (rhade - listening)

[personal profile] truth_is_cold 2011-09-13 03:16 am (UTC)(link)
Hm. Some of the ideals usual to my culture come from Japanese society. Some not. I'm certain we would disagree on a few points of morality, but not so much we can't conduct a civil discussion.
no_fastolfe: (Default)

[personal profile] no_fastolfe 2011-09-13 03:17 am (UTC)(link)
Indeed! I am a Spacer, sir. I was born on Aurora, the first of fifty spacer worlds. We split from Earth long ago, because Earth refused to embrace the technology that would afford them comfort, and tied themselves to their planet until they realized that the other worlds were full.

[personal profile] gammabruce 2011-09-13 03:20 am (UTC)(link)
I'm not naive enough to believe violence will ever go away. But I am optimistic - possibly idealistic - in hoping there won't be a need for wars and killing at some point in the future.

Much as I hate to admit it, I think some morals, with certain people are, unfortunately, relative to the current situation. 'Fluid' as you put it fits aptly.

[identity profile] cannibalmind.livejournal.com 2011-09-13 03:24 am (UTC)(link)
You have honor. That is respectable, especially if it is fluid enough that it defines instead of confines one.

To be completely honest I think I prefer men of your power to be honorable and to dislike bullies.
i_like_your: (Smile - Content)

Private: When a Terminator gets your witticisms, others should worry...

[personal profile] i_like_your 2011-09-13 03:32 am (UTC)(link)
I like your turn of phrase.

He strongly desires this, yes. Previous logs indicate a strong desire for empowerment through fear.
requiresssacrifice: (Rex - ~obscured~)

[personal profile] requiresssacrifice 2011-09-13 03:37 am (UTC)(link)
Hm.

Back home, I never put much thought into morality. It seemed... irrelevant to my pursuits.

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